Stay at home vs Work outside home

[Bigsweetie]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

The government should pay you a wage. The government.

Sorry, I'm still trying to wrap my head around that one.

Ignoring the numerous and obvious arguments to your idea, let's go with this: If the gov't were to pay moms I would assume there would also have to be regulation involved. Not just ANYONE could be approved or people would just pop out babies for money. (Much like some welfare recipients who DO get paid for children.)

In that case, there would have to be parent licensing requirements which would include a 10-year background check, educational prerequisites, an in depth and formal parent training program, and a mental evaluation before you were granted gov't approval to have a child.

After that, you would have to meet several "gates" in your child's development in order to continue gov't assistance. Gates might include ensuring your child passes standardized test, earns a specific GPA, is admitted to college, etc. Think of it as a "No Child Left Behind Act" on crack.

Actually, you may be on to something. This plan would reduce our massive population expansion and would increase the quality of children produced. I imagine though there would have to be some sort of disposal procedure for those who had children outside the gov't sponsored plan...

I didn't say I had it all figured out! I know that it's a flawed plan with too many loopholes, but it'd be nice for those of us who take staying home seriously it'd be nice to get a little extra tax break or some kind of compensation. I don't do it for that reason, of course, but it'd be nice.

You're right though, there's no way to prevent crappy mothers from getting compensated too!

BTW- if they ever wanted to investigate me, put my kids through standardized tests, or put me through a rigorous screening process, I say bring it on!! My kids are smart, healthy, and well cared for!! But of course that's not the case for every child!

[SeatClutcher]

Originally Posted by Bigsweetie

We don't really have the flexibility to choose to be a SAHM w/o giving up an income. It's not considered a "career" although it's what i've wanted to do my entire life. I gladly sacrifice the paycheck for it, but it still takes skills, IMO.

And you're right! Thieves are someone's child too! But as for "I shouldn't be paying for you to stay home"... Your doctor is someone's child too! The person who does your taxes is someone's child, the police officer who rushes to your home when you need him is somoene's child too!!

I think the point is that it's unreasonable to expect to not have to make a choice between this or that.

My doctor is someone's child - true! But I wouldn't want to pay for the cost of raising her any more than I'd want to pay for the cost of raising a thief. One of the things I like about not having kids is that there's a lot more money to play with. I would have a problem with using my money to pay for someone else's kids -when those people CHOSE to have kids, knowing how expensive they can be and knowing they would probably have to give something up to have them (either time or money or both). Especially when you have fertility-drug couples giving birth to sextuplets.

Having children is a choice, not an obligation, I think is where I'm going. (But it probably DOES feel like it's worth a paycheck.)

[Bigsweetie]

Originally Posted by SeatClutcher

Having children is a choice, not an obligation, I think is where I'm going. (But it probably DOES feel like it's worth a paycheck.)

Your career was a choice too, was it not? Does it seem fair that if I take in some drug users kid, give them a home with love and turn them in to productive citizens of society that I would get paid by the state to do it? But the fact that my kids got that same love and affection from the beginning, I get nothing for it?

I would have no problem taking a boat load of classes, that I pay for, just like I did to get my interior design degree. I would have no problem with someone from the state coming in to check on our progress at any time.

Of course i'm realistic that this would NEVER happen in a million years anyway.

Yep! I CHOSE to be a mother. The same way you CHOSE to do whatever career you do. You get paid for the contributions you make, I don't... because my contributions aren't noticed immediately. My contributions to society are noticed when my kids grow up to be good citizens of the world. That's certainly enough payment for me (although I don't feel it's fair).

I just think it's kind of smug that some people that don't have children think that it's a waste of their money to help raise children. I hate to break it to you, but you already are!!! WIC, Welfare, etc. are all funded by your tax dollars. And some of those kids will grow up to take care of you in when you're 80 years old and had a stroke (God forbid). I guess it was money wasted????

We don't live in a individualistic society. Some of our money is pooled to help the masses (including children).

God forbid anything ever happens to you financially and you end up on welfare or any other government assistance program. Our money gets put in to the same pool as yours does~!

[ChinookDriver]

Originally Posted by Bigsweetie

Your career was a choice too, was it not? Does it seem fair that if I take in some drug users kid, give them a home with love and turn them in to productive citizens of society that I would get paid by the state to do it? But the fact that my kids got that same love and affection from the beginning, I get nothing for it?

You get the love and affection from your children. You get the great feeling of satisfaction of doing your job of raising a kid properly after you decided to have one.

Once the child actually is a productive member of society, they get paid for their skills. Perhaps they'll take care of you one day - who knows.

I've never known a parent ever who wanted the government to pay them for doing their biological job.

Of course i'm realistic that this would NEVER happen in a million years anyway.

Understood - this is all hypothetical. I understand you're not completely serious.

Yep! I CHOSE to be a mother. The same way you CHOSE to do whatever career you do. You get paid for the contributions you make, I don't... because my contributions aren't noticed immediately. My contributions to society are noticed when my kids grow up to be good citizens of the world. That's certainly enough payment for me (although I don't feel it's fair).

It's perfectly fair. It is a biological and moral imperative for parents to raise their children. You're not doing anyone a favor - you're raising your children just like the billions before you.

I just think it's kind of smug that some people that don't have children think that it's a waste of their money to help raise children. I hate to break it to you, but you already are!!! WIC, Welfare, etc. are all funded by your tax dollars. And some of those kids will grow up to take care of you in when you're 80 years old and had a stroke (God forbid). I guess it was money wasted????

We don't live in a individualistic society. Some of our money is pooled to help the masses (including children).

Come on now - that's not what she was saying and you know it. This comparison makes no sense.

Way more important than WIC and welfare, our tax dollars fund the schools. So in a way, you already get paid quite a bit in the form of a free education for your children.

As worthless as social security will become, we've still all paid into that too. No matter what, the person who takes care of us when we're 80 won't be doing so out of the goodness of their hearts, or because you raised them right, it will be because it is their job and they are being paid to do so.

God forbid anything ever happens to you financially and you end up on welfare or any other government assistance program. Our money gets put in to the same pool as yours does~!

Again, you're making an illogical comparison here. No one is arguing existing programs - wic and welfare weren't discussed or critiqued, and they aren't a fair comparison to your idea of getting paid for raising your own children.

[Bigsweetie]

Originally Posted by ChinookDriver

You get the love and affection from your children. You get the great feeling of satisfaction of doing your job of raising a kid properly after you decided to have one.

Once the child actually is a productive member of society, they get paid for their skills. Perhaps they'll take care of you one day - who knows.

I've never known a parent ever who wanted the government to pay them for doing their biological job.

Understood - this is all hypothetical. I understand you're not completely serious.

It's perfectly fair. It is a biological and moral imperative for parents to raise their children. You're not doing anyone a favor - you're raising your children just like the billions before you.



Come on now - that's not what she was saying and you know it. This comparison makes no sense.

Way more important than WIC and welfare, our tax dollars fund the schools. So in a way, you already get paid quite a bit in the form of a free education for your children.

As worthless as social security will become, we've still all paid into that too. No matter what, the person who takes care of us when we're 80 won't be doing so out of the goodness of their hearts, or because you raised them right, it will be because it is their job and they are being paid to do so.



Again, you're making an illogical comparison here. No one is arguing existing programs - wic and welfare weren't discussed or critiqued, and they aren't a fair comparison to your idea of getting paid for raising your own children.

So if you get even an ounce of satisfaction from your job, you shouldn't get paid? I'm sure there's days that you felt a huge amount of satisfaction for a job well done... I don't think you'd take a pay cut for it! That makes no sense!

I'm not doing anyone a favor? Let "the system" raise my kids and we'll see about that when you're paying for their imprisonment.

I can see how you'd see my job as holding no value to you. But you're not thinking longterm. Typically mothers like myself who are loving, caring, and nuturing to our children do not raise kids who end up in jail (where you'll be paying for them again - along with a free college education I might add). The money you're putting into a SEVERELY flawed welfare system is paying for some mothers who are crack heads and abuse the system. Whose kids will most likely grow up incarcerated or back in to the welfare system. Not ALL of course. There's plenty of people who legitimately need those services, but the system is severly flawed and abused and you know it. Wouldn't you rather have some of your tax dollars go to children who will most likely grow up to be good citizens?

Anyway, i'm done debating this point. It's pointless anyway since you'll never have to worry it. Society will never see the value in mothers who stay at home. That's fine by me, life's not always fair.

[christykay]

Wow! I find it extremely fascinating how a wonderfully simple poll could be turned into a very interesting topic of conversation. And I'm not being sarcastic- to read the varied viewpoints of those with children and those without are amazing.

There will always be sacrifices when choosing to have children and of course when choosing not to. As a Mom to four little ones ages 4 to almost 10, my DH and I have made the choice for me to stay at home with them and sacrifice a paycheck for the opportunity to raise our children. I am incredibly happy with our choice and am grateful that we have worked so hard on our budget to do so. Of course we don't have a lot of "extras", but that was our choice- and I am ok with that. The fact of the matter is: I'm a Mom- of course it is a thankless job, and the monetary pay sucks, but the rewards are absolutely, well...rewarding.

I've thought some about Bigsweetie's idea of being paid for choosing to be a SAHM and raising our children and obviously the idea fascinates me. Of course her ideas were hypothetical, as nothing like this would ever become reality, but ponder this:
Parents who choose to work and put their children into daycares are given childcare tax credits. Why are working parents rewarded monetarily for placing their children into daycares and parents who have chosen to stay at home and sacrifice a paycheck aren't rewarded monetarily for the caring of their children?
(Stirring up the conversation pot a bit )

An interesting topic for sure.

[SeatClutcher]

Originally Posted by Bigsweetie

Anyway, i'm done debating this point. It's pointless anyway since you'll never have to worry it. Society will never see the value in mothers who stay at home. That's fine by me, life's not always fair.

The system is certainly flawed. That could be a conversation that goes on for days.

But as to this last statement - that I don't want to send you money to pay for you to raise children you choose to have (when would it stop? at two kids? three kids? ten?) doesn't mean people don't see the value in mothers who stay at home. There's incredible value in it!! But appreciation doesn't necessarily always come your way in the form of a cash payment.

It sound like you are proud of the mothering you've done, and that's fantastic. (Of course, to say that kids who end up as criminals weren't raised by loving parents is a little judgmental - there are plenty of parents who give birth to kids who just are what they are...the whole nature v. nurture debate ).

Again, you probably feel like all the work you do should be paid for, and I can't argue that if I had kids I'd not feel that way, too. I don't know that I'd actually think the government should pay me, but I'd want SOMETHING, damnit! Like a vacation. But - that said, once you try arguing even remotely not-hypothetically about being appreciated for your human contribution to the country, it really does get sticky (as Ian J. pointed out in detail earlier).

Have you thought about lobbying for better daycare, better paternity leave, etc. for your town's parents? It's amazing what you can get done when you're passionate enough about it.

[SeatClutcher]

Originally Posted by christykay

Parents who choose to work and put their children into daycares are given childcare tax credits. Why are working parents rewarded monetarily for placing their children into daycares and parents who have chosen to stay at home and sacrifice a paycheck aren't rewarded monetarily for the caring of their children?

Dayum. Good question.

[spotty4]

Originally Posted by christykay

Wow! I find it extremely fascinating how a wonderfully simple poll could be turned into a very interesting topic of conversation. And I'm not being sarcastic- to read the varied viewpoints of those with children and those without are amazing.

I think that's the problem here. This thread was a poll. Its gotten off track. While the topic its turned into is quite interesting, I think it needs to be moved to a different thread so as not to lose focus of this thread's original intent. Kristie?

[katbuad]

Originally Posted by spotty4

So katbuad, did you get what you were looking for out of this poll? Or was it strictly curiosity?

Well, I was satisfying curiosity but it seems I have started a national debate.